So, I'll be the first one to add a comment.

First of all: I'm not against copy protection schemes and I see that protection can be necessary. Also I buy the software I use. However, copy protection also needs to respect the customer, the enduser of the software. Let's take Steinberg's Cubase: to use this software, you'll need a syncrosoft key. If your on tour with you notebook and Cubase, you always risk to loose/break this tiny piece of plastic. Not only wouldn't you be able to use Cubase until you get a replacement, you also have to buy the software again (steinberg's policy). Also, the dongle occupies at least one usb-port, so you probably need a hub to connect all your keyboards, etc. Clearly, this is not fair use for the customer. Fair use would be:
- you need a dongle to authorize up to two computers; after that no dongle is used.
- if you lose your dongle, you get replacement for a small fee.
Software companies like steinberg also lose customers if they insist to use a dongle. Because of the risk to lose the dongle on tour, people will more and more use other programs that need no dongle, like Ableton Live, etc.

Let's hear some voices from the endusers now: http://www.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=92977

Rob

I believe that software vendors have the right to protect their products from copyright infringement, hell in this day and age they must.

Possibly when the hardware dongle was introduced, from Steinberg with Cubase, it may have seemed it would bring more of an advantage than a disadvantage but now, one search on any popular torrent site or P2P network and you will find the latest version of Cubase, packaged with a crack that is a Virtual Dongle. As long as your virtual dongle is running the program will run.

So now, the dongle is causing paying customers more trouble than the people illegitimately aquiring the software!

The people that purchased the software must carry a hardware dongle, have their software run at a reduced speed, worry about people stealing it and have to break the bank should they need a replacement.

But anyone who chooses not to pay for the product has none of the above to worry about, in theory there is no reason the software dongle would have hardware delay associated with it, so it may even run faster!

Come on Steinberg! Now your causing a nuisance and your device doesn't even prevent piracy anymore.


Of course legitimate Cubase customers having lost or broken a dongle could use the virtual dongle to use their software. If you are the only person with a copy of the software you wouldn't be breaching the software usage agreement (i think) either way it saves re-purchasing the software for another piece of hardware to break/lose!

Hi guys,

As this IMSTA forum was a bit sleepy, I haven't checked the latest posts in a while. This "fair use" thread is certainly a great debate for this board and thank you for that.

Some of our partners like Nomad Factory proposes two protection schemes to authorize their customers software. Users decide to either use disc authorization or ilok if that suits their needs. (I personally love using ilok when it comes to authorizing my software in a third party studio).

Pace offers that possibility for developers to give their customers the choice in the way they want to protect their software. Isn't that a good compromise knowing that no protection tools are "enjoyable" to use as issues do happen (always at the wrong time).

Your thoughts?

Cheers - Eric

IainK : you're false saying you can find the latest version of steinberg software with a crack that work's on p2p network, it's false, it's seems syncrosoft protection is effective now and since way before your post .
And what do you think of software for UAD1 (and 2 now) or powercore, or digidesign tdm... the dongle is far more intrusive. With the hardware we've got they could do it in native, no??
Me I'm happy to see they did a good protection. For the fear of loosing or broking your dongle, I think they could had an option in which the license on your dongle is no longer permanent but must be reactivated periodicaly on their websites (which will store your license and that you could access with a code).
So if you loose your dongle, after this time, it will be useless. So YOU, the owner of the liscence could transfer it to a new dongle.

I agree with that! There are ways to make dungle protections esier and safer tool to use... I'll pass a long if I see more good ideas here.

Thanks ent!

Hi Everyone,

I would like to thank you for taking the time to post your comments and encourage you to voice these opinions in the IMSTA Survey too.

http://www.imsta.org/imsta_survey.html

All the best,
IMSTA

Personally I love the dongle system (especially the ilok because of the 0 downtime system) because I have several computers, (a Macbook Pro running both OSX and Vista, a desktop at home, and then another desktop at the studio) the dongle allows me to LEGALY install all of my plug-ins and ProTools on all of my computers, and not to have to worry about “activation”.
Before the dongle was popular among software developers, I found myself having to pirate software even though I legally owned it! I would only run one copy of it at a time, and I think it is stupid to pay for more than one copy of the software if I am oly able to use one copy of that software at a time.
I will admit that the system Cuebase uses is annoying, but other systems like the iLok is amazing, if it breaks, they allow you to run a dongle emulator until they ship a replacement out! So you never lose your licenses.

I also think ilok rocks though i'd prefer a perfect world where no protection is needed... But is that the case

All testimonials are welcome.

Cheers - Eric

The steinberg key is the electronic equivalent of a lavatory key at a petrol station....

I'm taking it personally steinberg.

I vow never to use another piece of software that requires a paranoid plastic pimple sticking out of an otherwise useful usb port.

But I love Cubase....

I used to enjoy using Cubase....

But after suffering all that stupid dongle key related frustration my experience using this software is badly damaged.

Get rid of your keys steinberg and I might think about buying your software.

Till then I'll be under a tree with an acoustic guitar because, unless a gremlin that came with the guitar won't let me play it unless I send him an email and he returns it with a password which I have to whisper in his ear and the whole time he's on my back and I can't get him off unless I stop using the guitar and when I can use it I can't use all my fingers because some are busy entertaining the gremlin.

Yes unless all that takes place I won't have any of the same problems will I?

Steinberg has a right to use any copy protection they want. In this case, it's a dongle that can get lost, stolden, or broken.
If you value the software, you will take care of the dongle. Right? If you damage the dongle, Steinberg will replace it for you.
All it takes is a phone call and sending your dongle back for replacment. No different then replacing a common part. You go without until
then new part arrives. Remember it was your fault the dongle was damaged, You did not protect it. If it was lost or stolden you did not
protect it and just like anything else, if you want a replacement, you buy a new one. In this case your insurance will cover the costs.
You do have insurance on your gear, Right???? After all you are taking it out to gigs or have a home studio. Insurance is cheap
compaired to replacement costs.

Here is a cheap easy fix for protecting your dongle from damage. Mount the dongle inside your computer case using a "A" type
USB cable and a few cable ties.


I'm working on a solution for laptop users.

Ken

Your Virtual Web Hosting: Monthly Bandwidth at signup 5.0 TB or 5000 GIG What is your fair use policy ?? do you shut down a site if it has reached say for example a daily limit ?? if so what is that limit ??
Thanks

Having been contacted by a lawyer, you really need to get in touch with one yourself. Fair use is a defense you can attempt to assert and prove to a judge in court, not a written exception to the law. It is also a copyright concept, which doesnt help you on the trademark claims for using their logo. And the fraud and libel claims are two more separate areas.

A lawyer will be able to advise you about your chances of winning this case better than any random forum folk you ask.

Protection of last Cubase versions is broken now. And if to walk through forums and p2p related resources it is possible to observe one interesting thing. Thousands of people suddenly started to download pirated version, activity in discussions about Cubase features, bugs, usage blow up suddenly. I think this fact proves assumption that strong protection does not cause most of illegal users to buy software. Nearly 3 years passed since Cubase 4 release till appearance of it's cracked copy. This was long enough period of time to build strong opinion that current syncrosoft protection is unbreakable. But the crowd which at current moment is downloading cracked copy did not buy Cubase during these 3 years. They just stopped to use Cubase and maybe searched for less protected alternatives, or remained on old cracked Cubase version instead of buying more fresh legal one.

wow, these forums really arnt taken care of. very sad for a group with tons of huge companies backing them up.

anyways, I find that alot of challenge and response copy protection is imoral, because it limits paying customers by in some cases making them call hotlines begging for another activation. the person on the other line can accuse you of beign a pirate, and blacklist your serial and account (this has happened to me with adobe). piracy isnt right, but in my mind, but copy protection that leads paying customers to being accused of piracy is even worse. if I ever end up needing to use a program with that kind of copy protection, I will gladly buy it, but I will most definately use a pirated copy in place of the verison i purchased. I find dongles to be a very fair way around the bullshit of challenge and response.

also, if u look at the price of cubase 5, its just stupid expensive. $600(cdn)!!!! are u kidding me!? they dont even have a demo! its a great app, and im saving my ass off to buy it, but that price is just extortionate.
example:
-my line6 hardware (pod-x3) cost me less then this
-windows vista, and 7 combined cost me less then this
-I can get a train ticket all the way across canada for less then that
-I can fly to another provence for about that (maybe a tad more)

that said, cubase copy protection is very much welcome in my mind, but still. WAY overpriced

companies need to really think about pricing much more deeply.

I must say the Steinberg price tags are sometimes outraging.

ok, i make money out if this app, as a person in post production i dont excist without my DAW, thats true.

But, in our studio we have 4 systems running Nuendo 4. We have bought everything since Cubasis.
So why arent they cheaper bundles for 2 or 3 or 4 etc. licences?
We payed so much money to go from Nuendo 3 to 4 , and the release was actually full of bugs! I had some major issues and after a few updates it still has some really annoying stuff. And to be honest, the actuall workflow improvements in N4 in comparison to N3 were not that great. And now i hear N5 is ready. So , 4 new updates , and so much money again .

So if i want a 5th copy, why shouldnt i use a cracked version of it? Why should i pay another 1500$ or more?

I agree. your point is completely valid.
I dont make money from my music currently, as I'm in school, and the prices are even worse to me.

Everyone here has pretty much covered it.

Fair Use is one of those concepts that gets handled on a case by case basis and you only get to use that defense once you get to court. Is it worth having to get to that point?

um... YES!
alot of companies couldnt give a FLYING FUCK about their customers.
just look at the NAZI digital restrictions management some companies are using. look at ableton! you have to REQUEST more activations, giving them the ability to completely fuck over paying customers (AND THEY DO), while pirates just keep using the app (btw, if im refering to your comment in the wrong context, its cause u didnt quote anyone). in these cases, im a piracy advocate, as long as the product was purchased. in these cases its a VERY FAIR way around the disrespectful anti-piracy techneques. (ide much rather pay the $50 canadian for an ilok then deal with the morons who do challenge and response)

as for extortionate pricing, theres no excuse. thats just profit for them. sure, development costs are through the roof, but highschool math teaches the calculations taht optimize sales and profit. boxing, writing to cd, and printing manuals will not cost the company more then a few dollars an edition. if they lowered the prices, they would most definately get more sales! they are doing MUCH better then breaking even, and are squeezing independant musicians for every dollar they have. <- thats the job of the record label, not the software devs.
now, again, im not saying pirating is ok, but companies need to rethink pricing, and piracy wont be as bad. perhaps do what cocos did with reaper, and have a very trimmed down price for people making under $20,000 a year with the music made in reaper.